The IPCC released their special report "Climate Change and Land" to examine how human-led land use change is contributing to global warming irrespective of our direct GHG emissions, and how this might impact our future resilience in the face of desertification, land degradation, and food insecurity. This episode features a ton of facts: surface air temperature is warming twice as fast above land compared to the global average; land change alone accounts for a whopping 1/4 of all anthropological based warming; agriculture is responsible for 70% of global freshwater use; and industrial agricultural methods along with nitrogen fertilizer use have exploded so rapidly over the past several decades that top soil is being lost at rates 100 times faster than the earth's ability to replenish it. But more importantly, these facts are just the tip of the rapidly melting iceberg and give way to plenty of endless rants on all of the usual failures of the IPCC's failures and omissions.
Subscribe now on: iTunes | Google Play | Stitcher | Soundcloud | Spotify | RSS | or search "Ashes Ashes" on your favorite podcast app.
(This is an automated transcription and it's bad. We hope to fix it someday - you can help! Send us an email and we can pay a small fee for full cleanup)
[0:04] I'm David Torcivia.
[0:06] I'm Daniel Forkner.
[0:08] And this is Ashes Ashes, a show about systemic issues, cracks in civilization, collapse of the environment, and if we're unlucky, the end of the world.
[0:18] What if we learn from all of this, maybe we can stop that. The world might be broken, but it doesn't have to be.
[0:32] So David on July 19th of this year president of Brazil jair bolsonaro announced that he did not believe the data showing the Four station occurring in the Amazon rainforest, and just a month later on the 10th.
[0:48] Set up Daniel B rainforest is on fire right now we don't have time for your stupid boring facts of reading things like it's some lame-ass BBC news report literally the lungs of the Earth are burning down as we speak.
[1:05] But I think it's important to note David that on the 10th of August a bunch of Brazilian livestock ranchers in the Brazilian state of para stopped along a highway. They declared a National Fire day and then they walked into the forest and set fire to a few spots of the Amazon rainforest.
[1:25] A bunch of Rancher Bros or like you know what today is the fire day and we're just going to commit a bunch of arson in this like Global ecological treasure and they like announce this. This is like a celebration like here a truck lives matter sort of thing like a bunch of guys one around in this town probably getting wasted driving their trucks and like let's go burn down the rainforest that sounds like a fun thing to do boys will be boys.
[1:53] I think we are probably in accurately merging you know us Southern Culture with Brazilian culture but I mean essentially in effect practically speaking yet. So the city of noble Progresso witnessed a 300% increase in fires 124 total raging at the same time and then the next day that big you're almost doubled again. To 203 cases of fight another part of the region known as Altamira experienced a 743% increase in fires on fire day. And it unifiers exploded in other areas of the state as well and apparently this was spurred. By the president himself not directly but his comments have emboldened livestock Ranchers. To set fire to the forest to show their support of the president and their willingness to work.
[2:47] He's like another thing ever watched Avatar Daniel the animated series not The. 3D blue Pocahontas horrible film.
[3:05] Take a child with a blue arrow on his head.
[3:07] Yeah him. And every episode begins with the weekend of the interesting and they're like and everything changed when the Fire Nation attacked and the Fire Nation like sets fire the world do you think. Bolsonaro watch this and was like man I'm going to be just like fire lord ozai and burn down the Earth and turned everything into like industry and fire because it's basically like what are you doing right now.
[3:33] Right well you know in other news and this is unrelated kind of I think. Forest fires are up in Brazil 80% this year across the board most likely because of climate change induced drought and human-caused afforestation in addition to all the fire days that are being declared, in just a couple of days ago the city of South Paulo was plunged into complete darkness in the middle of the day because, of the smoke coming from the fact that the Amazon rainforest is you know on fire maybe you're on to something.
[4:08] A second age of Darkness ushered in by the maybe she's not watching Avatar he's watching Lord of the Rings and he saw nuts or Miss Ormond and Isengard. Home of this beautiful Forest, and and then Isengard and into her mind is like okay you know what I'm going to build an R&B and industrialized my beautiful forest and it burns everything down and build all this Machinery stuff, once again somebody says stop showing him all these movies is clearly taking the wrong message from all of this too bad that you know he.
[4:47] Well you know deforestation is a example, of land use change in this case human driven and the ipcc the intergovernmental panel on climate change just released a new report David about. 15 days ago or so on the 7th of August 2019 and it's called climate change and lamb, and ipcc special report on climate change desertification land degradation sustainable Land Management food security and greenhouse gas fluxes in terrestrial ecosystem.
[5:23] Oh nice it does it have like large section the saying that we should burn the Amazon to the ground.
[5:28] Quite the opposite actually use a price.
[5:30] Someone should send a Portuguese copy down to Brazil I guess.
[5:37] Translators are working around the clock haven't gotten to the Portuguese Edition yet but I have a confession to make David.
[5:44] You didn't read it.
[5:46] Well said to be perfectly clear I read the summary for policymakers, the full report is about I don't know it's about like 10 chapters each chapter is like 300 pages so multiply that you get a big number, and I've spent the last four days or so transitioning from my old home which was Atlanta Georgia.
[6:07] Studio One.
[6:08] Studio One the original studio if you will and I packed all my stuff into my car, I donated my mattress cuz it wouldn't fit, and I spent three days driving up I stopped in North Carolina then I drove up to New York City where I after 12 hours of driving I showed up at your doorstep at like 10 or 11 at night, came in and drink all the beer in your fridge crash on your couch and then got up in the morning and drove on up. And here I am in Boston Massachusetts David.
[6:40] Hell yeah Studio 3.
[6:41] What was the point of that so the point is I didn't have time to read 3000 pages of intergovernmental panel on climate change.
[6:48] Well I also didn't read all 5000 pages of intergovernmental panel on climate change data I also only summarize the policy-making summary, and let me tell you listeners that though I did skim some of the other sections and I've still actively reading through them it is boring this is a boring report, and horrifying at the same time.
[7:10] Global destruction is often quite a dull topic to engage in a book but what the report does it, seeks to isolate the impacts or the drivers of climate change to just the land use changes going on in our world today so you know ignore the ocean, ignore fossil fuels ignore the fact that you know we're sending Rockets into space and we're just like burning oil wherever we please, let's just look at the way the land functions the way before station Wetlands degradation agriculture picture of global climate change, so these are topics of desertification land degradation including soil erosion vegetation Los wildfires permafrost. And food security dealing with crop yields and food supply, and then this report makes up five possible human trajectories human civilization trajectories and how these might be able to mitigate and adapt to these changes.
[8:15] Each one more implausible than the last.
[8:19] Some contradictions which will get to do you say we just jump into this report.
[8:24] Yeah we're going to just read you all listeners every page of these 41 pages of reports to sit back close your eyes and fall asleep.
[8:33] Coffee's recommend.
[8:35] That way we wouldn't do that to you this would that was Daniel's original suggestion but we're actually just going to hit the highlights here I told him that nobody will want to listen to that. At least one of us is looking out for you.
[8:47] If you disagree with David and agree with me send us an email contact at ashes ashes. Org.
[8:53] Daniel's reading voice listening right there.
[8:56] So I was surprised to learn that Youmans directly affect 70%, all land on Earth Ice real and cuz we haven't quite conquered the ice shelves yet and okay so what's the other 30% will 12% is just Barren Rock, so we're pretty good about settling almost every part of the earth right David.
[9:18] What will animals that leave if 30% is relatively untouched 12% that is literally just Baron or Rock. And that leaves only 16% of the earth Daniel 7% That's on Forest at 9% that's forested. That counts as intact with minimal human use it is not even no human use it just minimal human you so that that is out of 130 million square kilometers on Earth, that is considered iced freelance so not counting you know most of Antarctica. That leaves us with just 16% that isn't Baron rock that is actively allowing life to grow on it which is about 20 million square kilometers. That's a lot when you see 20 million square kilometers do its just 16% of basically the quote-unquote usable amount of worth.
[10:12] You also said 7% of minimal human uses unforested that's that probably includes things like deserts.
[10:20] Certainly some deserts yes.
[10:22] And when you think about our impact on the earth a lot of people might think of cities these are huge megastructures of concrete and steel just like, yeah whatever, natural land used to exist there is just completely paved over I think of highways are you in those suburbs you know sprawling suburbs that we talked about a couple of weeks ago, but in fact David the most common use of land that we have converted the Natural Earth 2 on this planet, is devoted entirely to some form of food production, cropland is a whopping 12% of all ice reel and on Earth and then the land that we use for pastures is even way higher than that.
[11:04] It's it's the single largest use of ice real and on this planet.
[11:09] Write and in that surprised me I think because when I guess it shouldn't surprise me but we eat so much meat that I mean that requires a whole bunch of land to set aside and then it's not just the pasture land that we have to set aside but then we had to grow other crops just to feed the animals.
[11:24] Triton set that comes up to 37% of Earth's ice-free land surface alone is dedicated to some sort of Pastor.
[11:33] Okay so keep that in the back of your mind and important reason why we're talking about just land, in the context of global climate change is because according to the data are surface temperature above the land is warming twice as fast as the global average, this is 1.5 degrees of Celsius warming vs, .87 degrees which is the mean surface air temperature over land and ocean. All this change that's going on on the planet David I'll just land use that we are at intensively developing, accounts for one quarter 23% of all human-caused climate change principally stemming from Agriculture and deforestation.
[12:17] But it doesn't end right there Daniel this number as we talked about on this shows so extensively is heavily linked. Did he's larger ideas Logistics and so when you take all the logistics necessary to make this Global food supply system function to get all that the product where it needs to go to the grown and then take it ultimately to Consumers. Adds up to as much as 37% of all the human emitted greenhouse gases. Basically coming straight from our food system the very Supply we need to live but there is a lot of waste in that system.
[12:53] In fact 30% of all the food we produce is that a lost spoiled or wasted.
[13:00] Which amounts to almost 8% of our total greenhouse gas emissions, is literally just food for throwing away if we were talking about you know climate change in these words that that a lot of politicians and Economist like to use in terms of the carbon budget, well that seems like a pretty easy way to tighten that belt and share some of that needs to be taken to the hundreds of millions of people who are undernourished, but at the same time there are two billion people on this planet that are mentioned in this report for being overweight or obese.
[13:31] Yeah I mean the amount of calories that we each consumed has increased, is that globally since 1961 food calories per capita has increased by 1/3 inch important to point out you know we talked about agriculture but, I'm reminded of our episode fast-fashion where we talked about the environmental impact of all this clothing production that we see around the world are H&M zarzar Hazard Global Supply chains that make it possible to have a new season every single week, this takes up much of the Agricultural contribution of climate change. Again since 1961 the amount of crops grown just for fiber production like cotton, a huge water-intensive crops has increased by 162% up until 2013.
[14:18] Just a back tuck a second Daniel and and water is an important part is larger conversation that we can go there I just want to I got hung up on this overweight and obese stat and in that calories cuz I noticed something interesting. This report will link to it up on our page you can read it at ashes ashes. Org and there's a lot of pretty graphs and there's some crafts on page for that shows what I'm talking about right here which, you mentioned that per capita calorie production is increased by about a third in the past 50 years.
[14:53] The prevalence of people who are overweight or obese has increased by almost 100% in that time and I think that's really interesting that, you know you would think that overweight, obesity would probably track pretty similar to an increase in calories per capita and in fact the lag behind it because there were so many people who are first, were malnourished and Darnell Lino hundreds of millions or billions were are no longer my nerves because of these incredible advances, in a food technology in these industrial agricultural revolutions which you know as bad as they are in terms of their effect on land use and greenhouse gases and sustainability with we'll get to later on, did end up feeding a lot of people and did enable on supposed to population growth that we've seen But even that has lagged behind, the number of people who are overweight and obese and I wonder how much of that is is because.
[15:48] That what we are growing and what we are eating and what is not getting wasted is so much worse for us you know we talked about in the past and one of our earlier episodes, episode 14 sweet release about how sugar for example it is really terrible source of calories, can cause all sorts of health problems which no seems obvious now but at the time when the food and she was really trying to focus on the evils of meat and fat, didn't seem so obvious and then we've learned since then but they're still these things said in the way and, food science is still very much controlled by individual companies and lobbyists much more than the actual site to sell and and I wonder what we are growing, you know it didn't they talk about this report later on but we are growing probably isn't the stuff that's best for us in this process.
[16:36] Investing lots of money in Brazil to burn down the rainforest I could talk to you about Daniel in order to grow more sugar cane is probably not the best use of those resources, when we could be inside growing things that that are normally better for the soil itself but also better for all of us.
[16:54] And it's something that the report really doesn't talk about much in the policy summary I haven't gone to the section, on crops yet in in the more extended version but I mean the summer is a whole I think this is a good moment to pulled us aside and talk about it, it really tries to deal solely with the facts and history through it you'll see constantly with the Safe Act and then they'll even in parentheses give their house certainly are whether it's true or not. Icertainty low certainty whatever and if you really really try to limit themselves just is very dry information there is no room at all for any imagination or thinking outside of the status quo, and if you can what is marginal acceptable, and this is this is true even in later on they're going to talk about some of the impacts that continued climate change is going to have at 1.5 at 2 degrees at four and a half and beyond that are quite honestly even those reports cataclysmic. And you see these like these grass with red for showing you know how high the severity of things impacting us is and it's and then it turns to purple and it says you know basically all foods to buy instabilities at 2 degrees in a barber just be constant but. It is a terrifying report and then leave it to the solution section and it's it's that same dry like well if we do these things are we have this magical thinking then but maybe I'm getting ahead of myself. Let's go let's go back to fax.
[18:16] Will you mentioned that in the context of sugar and unhealthy foods that we learned quite a bit relative to what we knew in the past I think even you David are being a little bit generous in this conversation because.
[18:27] No one has ever accused me of that.
[18:31] First-time first-time but the listener will go back to episode 14 and listen to Sweet release you guys really a story less about. What we knew or what we didn't know I mean there is a bit of that right you talk about what was lost in the great Wars from your some Austrian experiments and in in the United States we kind of had to restart that but, for the most part it's a story of corporations that hijack academic research for their benefit, and use bribes and all types of intrigue to make their agenda go forward even when it's terrible for human health and Public Safety, and we hear from Margaret Chan in that episode the director or former director of the World Health Organization and you know she's actually more overtly critical of the role corporations have in this process and, I mean you're talking about burning down the Amazon rainforest for something like sugar cane this is really, a story of how we have allowed corporations to set the agenda for public health Public Safety and really just own the resources of this Earth with no accountability and no regulation, right that's what's going on in the Amazon rainforest is the deregulation that opens the space for corporations to really pillage and, extract and Destroy in the name of short-term profits.
[19:47] I think that might be why this that episode of particulars on my mind because I still Echoes of that same sort of self-censorship and I'm not sure if it's coming from the scientist who are afraid of getting things knocked out, Orion of the multitude of politicians lobbyists industry experts that comb through this final draft it's going out to policymakers around the world in order to sanitize, are the language the ideas we know what's possible in the same way that these lobbyists the scientists who are either directly funded by these corporations or being influenced by them did with these things up ultimately affect our health in the recommendation that we make for things like the food pyramid or something as simple as that and I feel I can feel the influenza to read through this stuff the limitations of the conversations the things they left out so I'm in their extensive sections on desertification and it just seems to be going to this magical process that happened if things get warm and ignores the fact that a lot of times desertification is driven not just by climate change and the fact that are biomes are shifting poured in both directions, but also by the deliberate economic choices individuals make governments push board like we're seeing right now in Brazil.
[20:59] But also in the effects of things like imperialism and the violence and war that happens around the world desertification the Middle East especially has been dramatically increased over the past decade and a half through a large part of the military Endeavors that are happening in places like Iraq and places like Syria, better pushed you know by the interest of countries like the United States like Russia like turkey and and are are implants out there directly often times burning crop fields of the all the oil that we we burn out there you know we talked about this in our recent episode on the greenhouse gas emissions of the US military the largest polluter on the planet with these things are never even. Barely missed you have to read between the lines so deeply or Oreo have this already pre-existing knowledge of what is causing all this stuff. If somebody with no knowledge of the earth and then nothing you know it's popping and they read this paper it would just seem like oh you know here's a bunch of things that are happening, and we have no idea why they're happening you know Lego this is greenhouse gas emissions who knows where they come from and what they're doing or why we're meeting them, and I know he was a pathway forward that we can try and explore in order to prevent this from happening getting worse and I'll talk about some of the patches without an a little bit longer.
[22:15] You know there's there's no exploration of flow maybe we should change what we're doing, on I'm not just be a land-use level or not just stay on the like how to tackle the problem, I guess that not problem with symptom of these greenhouse gas emissions as the primary ipcc report mentions or sex to this one does, but is larger systemic issues of like why are we involved in his complex around the world spreading this process making it worse exacerbating them encouraged in the economic choices that lead people like both in yarrow to encourage ranchers to burn down the Amazon, that is never explored and it's funny to reading the media report on this specific ipcc report which again came out speed weeks ago most of the media articles about it came out on August 8th so you can see them all.
[23:01] And you see you know the New York Times in Time Magazine of the commonest walrus, he's like very famous magazines newspapers blogs whatever talking about you know if we don't change something, the world is going to be in a really bad place, and lime uses a critical component of this in a reed ipcc report bubble by summarizing explain it, and then in the same paper you turn the pages the Congress was pivotal in electing bolsonaro and talking about how important it is to get him in power for the Brazilian state in order to spread their economy, and there's no irony in the fact that you have one in the same magazine, you know I'm one page they're saying this is what Brazil needs and on the next page saying if we keep doing this the world is going to be destroyed and.
[23:49] Like now I've gotten way off. I don't know where this is coming from but.
[23:56] Food for thought.
[24:00] Sorry that should have come at the end but I've got more later.
[24:08] So yeah if anyone questions are angle on this question no longer.
[24:15] Spoiler spoiler.
[24:17] Well let me give you another more couple more facts David since 1961 our use of nitrogen fertilizer around the world has exploded some 800% right and.
[24:28] Let me tell you a thing about nitrogen fertilizer.
[24:32] And it turns out, unsurprisingly agriculture accounts for some 80% of all the nitrous oxide.
[24:42] We humans release into the atmosphere pastors of course account for some half of that some 40%, and nitrous oxide is a greenhouse gas which is 298 times more potent than CO2, that is if you put one ton of nitrous oxide in the atmosphere it's you know you could have done the same effect by just putting 300 tonnes of CO2 in the air, and one of the other differences is that nitrous oxide persist in the atmosphere for over a hundred years and where is this coming from.
[25:13] Of course nitrogen fertilizer is one of the big drivers of this we are dependent on nitrogen fertilizer because of the industrial nature of Agriculture with, Anna seeks to mind the soil if you will to boost yields as fast as possible in our crop production but to do it, we have to use monoculture we have to plant one series of crops of the machines can Harvest most efficiently but then in order for that to survive we need to use all these pesticides and then we need to inject a whole bunch of nitrogen into the Earth, what the problem is we don't use nitrogen fertilizer as efficiently as possible and perhaps it would never be possible to use it efficiently in the sense that, we applied just the right amount, at the exact time that the plant is going to up take it so so it just gets over applied and then ends up running off into nearby rivers or something which has its own serious consequences which will get to we talked a lot more about nitrogen fertilizer and better agricultural practices in episode 16 what we read if you haven't heard that, definitely go back and put that on your list but here's a fact that's going to just shocked you David is just going to knock the socks right off your feet if you're wearing any.
[26:21] I am only sock.
[26:23] I think also in episode 16 we mentioned that there are some predictions that Global Supply of topsoil will be pretty much completely depleted by mid-century, and topsoil if you're not agriculturally minded is the soil where crops grow, the layer of soil where all the important micro species are found the organic materials minerals and the nutrients where these plants actually derive the resources they need to grow. And it turns out that our conventional tillage agriculture is eroding the soil 100 times faster. Then it can form on its own.
[27:06] You write that fact did knock the socks off of me because I underlined it like 60 times in the version of the the paper that I took notes on and I also want to mention just to a company that suck that, while, conventional tillage agriculture like you mentioned a great Soul at a hundred times faster than it is replenished the alternative that most people mention non tillage agriculture if done in traditional large industrial ways, and it sounds sort of like a oxymoron but it it can't happen even that degrades the topsoil at 10 to 20 times faster than the natural replacement rate, and of course there are ways around that during school in the more thoughtful way there's various techniques of the Cubs keep taking care of yourself and we'll talk about all that in that episode 16 and its absence from the. Those two stats alone should just be not be like whoa what are we doing to the land or destroying it.
[28:04] Bright and the question arises why is this happening, because our whole economy is based on borrowing from the future and this when I was first reading about climate change as if it's like one topic but it has wrapping my mind around climate change and in the future that we space, for the very first time this is the thing that really blew my mind that you know I always thought that we were destroying the world in the sense of like oh you know blue things, and we you know destroy the atmosphere but we always, have a way to generate food from the earth I mean what could be more sustainable or long-term than actually growing things right but it's just another example of how our entire economy is oriented around, a way to place debt over ourselves to borrow, from something that comes from a future process where that's money or whether that's the soil itself and it never occurred to me that you can actually extract from the soul you can actually mine it like you do a rock or right there, organic material and micro species that build up in soil overtime over long periods of time as, the natural cycles take place and it is very possible to just go in there and put a whole bunch of of nitrogen fertilizer as a kind of, nitrous boost nose think about nitrous and in a car engine and just.
[29:24] Exactly the same thing.
[29:26] Exactly the same thing and just that encouraged the high yield growth of crops are just going to suck everything out of the soil, and you're left with a Barren Wasteland and then of course once that soil is depleted in the wind cons and strips it away and, now climate change is wrapping up so you got these intense rain falls which also carries all the way in and eventually you can't grow anything there anymore because you've destroyed.
[29:50] Maybe if we we have a Fast and Furious movies but about not cars with Nitro boost like you mentioned but like people are storing the soil in like really Extreme Ways maybe maybe that make it start.
[30:04] But yeah okay.
[30:05] Hollywood producer has hit me up I got I got some stuff to picture.
[30:09] You mean like I'm about to drift through here with a bunch of corn.
[30:13] No no no corn, what month is growing like a three sisters Twitter method that's responsible and sustainable to go back to funny things in this report let me let me scroll down to some of my notes Here. Where would a giant LOL let's see where this worse is when they're talking later on about mitigation strategies. And you know what we can do to save the Earth and action figure take in the near-term they have a section here about how we should be doing things like sustainable land-use. And and they pitch this is this like radical idea and I had to stop reading and walk away at that point because it's so funny that I mean sustainable land-use in the very definition there's. Like at you're admitting that you're not using the Landscaping employee that you're eventually going to run into this crisis that we basically found ourselves in right now and the fact that they have to pitch, as a radical solution to this sustainable land-use, I thought was just at the funny like disconnected moment I'm like man the fact that someone somewhere is like I never considered sustainable farming, or sustainable land-use as a solution that I don't know I had a moment where I just had to walk away cuz I felt so disconnected from, whatever it is thinking that these policymakers and these industrialists must must be doing it at all times that I just was like I feel like I'm on another planet.
[31:41] It's like when you're a grandfather learns like a new hip word that the young kids are using you know in like tries to like integrated into a sentence. That's what the ipcc is this hey everybody have you heard of this thing called sustainable Land Management sustainability.
[31:58] Yeah and they picture is like radical thing that they came up with and think tanks or something not like people have been doing it for thousands of years until, we came in. Everybody had a farm the right way realize it's the wrong way and then now we have to go Andrea to get people how to do things sustainably because in that process, teaching people calling quote the right way to farm we lost all the actually correct sustainable ways of farming, cuz we've eliminated it culturally in order to push our our mechanize industrialize methods of feeding the world down our throat that ultimately led us to this place of doom, and in one second not to get ahead of myself you can tell I'm really like itching to talk about this but later on they talk about one of the.
[32:39] You just have a party to get to David.
[32:40] Oh yeah I do but they get to this part where the talking about more action in the near-term so this is on page 38, and if they talk about knowledge and Technology transfer can help enhance the sustainable use of Natural Resources for food security under a changing climate. Raising awareness capacity-building and education about sustainable land management practices agriculture extension and advisory services. Blah blah blah can help effectively address land degradation.
[33:09] Oh yeah you know the the old-fashioned technological innovation to do things the same.
[33:15] Well it was so funny and once again I had to stop reading here and walk away get because this could have gotten knowledge transfer often times is scientist and an agricultural experts who have rediscovered indigenous. Old ways of farming that we know more sustainable. Finding this again and and then taking it as like a new discovery and helping people fight so it was recently dialed I where at, Biosphere 2 which is famous for the failed, experiments in the early 1990s of trying to create an entirely sustainable a closed loop system to prove that such something would be possible in on mars or something.
[33:56] This was in Tucson Arizona.
[33:57] Yeah I mean it is an amazing place, it's amazing facility it feels like a cold if you're ever in Tucson I would highly recommend checking it out but the place is now owned by the University of Arizona now who uses it to research a lot of different things there's a lot of different biomes in this amazing clothes facility they could do a lot of very interesting experiments there is, it's amazing what they can do because of what was built for hundreds of millions of dollars from the billionaire who I don't know what his motivation was but.
[34:28] What are the things they have there that I thought was funny and there's actually a couple experience I think that are relevant to the show I don't think they have there was this poor guy is taking us around and he introduces us to these little, mailboxes of dirt they have that have plants growing in the plants with pretty healthy and he's like, let me show you an ancient invention that we're now testing again and it was basically just a a terracotta pot, put in the soil and you fill up with water and you cover the top the hole in it, and because it's terracotta it breathes it let the water out and it does so at a slow measured way, and the roots of the plants around the spot come in and absorb it and it's very efficient way to use water which is obviously especially important in desert environments like Arizona this is an ancient indigenous process they took, from local indigenous populations we've been using this for thousands of years before we came in and told everybody had a farm and how to grow Dino Pima cotton, on mass scale industrial scale which is one of the famous in agricultural inventions of the University of Arizona in Tucson and Pima County, and you drive past me in the middle of desert and you drive past these endless lines of of pure green cotton fields.
[35:43] It's more harder than traditional cotton but it's still a water intensive plant as we talked about towards the end of fast fashion episode you mentioned any. It's so funny to me that that we're in this billion-dollar facility and they have a decent session set aside to just.
[35:59] Trying to understand this old indigenous, a method of growing things sustainably and it making sure that you're not impacting in a water used too much and land use too much and it's a new new piece of knowledge and technology that they are hoping to expand in and take out to Farmers, all around the world and this is the kind of nose charged with the ipcc is talking about here this is study and research is happening right now and a picture that says like oh we're going to go and teach these uneducated, groups in which is often the code of ordinance things for third world Nations developing nations that that don't have you know the, industrial might that you know, he's like whatever or or other these acts science companies can come in in like Chili's corn with the right way to do stuff.
[36:45] Often times they're bringing technology that they pulled from the indigenous populations of these populations in the first place making its sciency. Often times that it that comes with a company packaging in making profit off of it and then bringing it back, to these places that they took it from it made them forget because we imported enforced upon our old traditional industrial European style of Agriculture and full circle. But where the Seeker the situation at BCC is pushing this as like this is how to save the world and ignores the fact, dear fellow scientist that came ahead of them that were pushing this ad science Green Revolution are the ones that fucked it all up in the first place there's nowhere in his or or. Anywhere of any guilt.
[37:30] Don't worry I have any knowledge of the past or the systemic issues and let us do this and that was so frustrating and I realize you know this is a summary maybe that would turn off the politicians of policymakers for reading this. And we will never fix these problems without examining the roots of why their problems in the first place this is report about treating symptoms. And yeah you know sustainable land-use a lot of practice to talk about our good things and we should be expanding process he's like biochar.
[38:01] Without understanding why we have to do it now. I think entirely misses the point that this up a larger failure the process because then we were just these conversations down to economic and a quantitative conversations you know is it profitable, to update your land to sustainable you so I can mention these numbers is he would take 50 to $2,000 per acre in order to turn it to stain, with the median number being $500 and that's how they've defined you know as a economic question. Ignoring of this larger tragedy the comments that is occurring it is absolutely is a tragedy of the commons which is ironic because this, Private Eye Blind new system was something that was really pitch to us as an elimination of the tragedy of Commons and it actually has a table to data Grand a planetary scale, which would have never been possible at this land was commonly owned and preserved by people for the common good in the first place but once again I'm going to get a gun myself.
[38:55] You know what the conversation is always economic quantitative how much carbon, questor how much money would it cost us to do this and there's never any, sort of thought wartime or words or energy put towards, the fact that you know we should be doing this regardless of whether it makes economic sense we should be doing this regardless of whether or not governments have to subsidize this in such way blah blah blah blah is the only way to move forward sustainably, in order to guarantee a future and one of the things that I took away from this report is that a lot of the options that are available to us initially, in order to make sure that we do stay under those dramatic temperature increases that that that's spelled Doom for things especially like boostability which I think so, I mean things most people can on because that's the thing that impacts the most immediately you know whether or not you can trust your next meal is going to come and whether you can afford that meal.
[39:51] And the higher the temperature creeps the farther we get above that bass line temperature whether it's 1.5 with its to whether its 3.5 whether it's beyond that. Insecurities that question about whether we have a meal coming is going to be more and more uncertain as these temperatures climb as we move into the future.
[40:12] And worse as that temperature climbs higher and higher the lift options we have, Indy's sustainable land use tools and in these other tools that the ipcc Lays out to mitigate that disaster, because the impact on plant used impact on lab the things that we depend upon become much more dramatic in this process is that temperature increases and we have to set aside morphe Moreland, in order to make up for the different sell it at 4 or 4 and 1/2 degrees crop yields are significantly damaged because we know a CO2 levels, crop yields have less nutrition in them that's one of the things that I. They're also much more likely to be hit by drought they're more likely to be hit by desertification to give me less arable land in the first place and, because of this this increase instability in the system also from more unstable weather all these things that add up to dedicate more land. To this food. In order to make sure that you can guarantee a sustainable amount of food that's always coming in and and you don't have these shocks that will end up killing millions or hundreds of millions of.
[41:21] And you find yourself in this death spiral is Catch-22 where you have to use more and more land continuously in order to protect ourselves from the shock to the system, but these land 2 stats increasing and increasingly done enough sustainable ways in order to get milk more and more out of the less and less remaining land is appropriate for this because of his encroaching deserts because of this lack of water, means that you are just intensifying the effects on the system and finding yourself more and more in a deeper hole, and climbing out of that hole is getting increasingly harder as time goes on which this paper lacks any sort of urgency in it there are, you know that has Daniel mentioned these different Pathways that take us forward into different routes of the future and they're built on different things and maybe Daniel will expand upon them in and explain it in a moment but there is no real sense of urgency besides, a couple of crafts that turn red or purple in certain places.
[42:16] This paper really try to limit itself from conversations of actual numbers of impact some people outside every now and then you know you'll see something like food will be 80% more expensive or something like that.
[42:27] But the fact is you know this is a paper that outlines Armageddon and if we don't act now, the mitigation strategies for this become more and more difficult it can more more expensive and become more and more limited in the land available to them in the first place because we have to dedicate more resources to Simply surviving, and you know like we talked about in didn't entirely other situations where if somebody spitting their life just trying to survive, they don't have a lot of time trying to make the world around them better they don't have a lot of time to make the community better they don't have time to do anything except focus on the fact.
[43:04] All of their energy physical and mental and emotional as devoted solely to the fact trying to keep their head above this metaphorical water and we will soon find ourselves on a continental, on a global civilizational level of doing the same exact thing, we're if we're trying just to survive in this increasingly inhospitable world how can we even think that we're going to have any sort of extra resources or capacity to dedicate trying to make that world better, and try to make our problems less dramatic we don't act now it's going to get harder and harder. That old adage the best time to plant a tree was yesterday at 20 years ago or whatever but the next best time is right now and the longer we wait the deeper going to find herself in this whole, and I think that urgency that lack of of concrete you know we need to do this now is. Huge mission in this paper and I think lives potentially enormous amounts of Lies will be lost because of that and now I've really got ahead of myself.
[44:07] Well to be fair David in in previous ipcc reports they have come out and said. You know we have 12 years 12 years to do something drastic or else runaway climate change will be unstoppable and we we have no we can do nothing about it.
[44:23] And that was optimistic.
[44:24] It was optimistic and we talked about that I think it was episode 50 Apocalypse Now is that right there.
[44:31] I mean it's if we mention there but I don't know if by the time that episode came out more recent paper suggesting at 12 years was actually closer to 18 months had had been out yet but I know we've mentioned the 18-month figure before, so at the clock is ticking but continue.
[44:48] It sounds to me based on parts of your rants rants that I was actually listening to that we need to do something, we need to do something now and who is we who are we I think that's something we can touch on in a little bit but, real quick okay so all this land is changing we're driving to certification we're setting the Amazon rainforest on fire for some reason we're doing all these things right and, like you mentioned that comes with risks there are consequences to that and lucky for us the ipcc goes into this a little bit I'll just read a quick quote from them.
[45:25] Increasing risks associated with desertification include population exposed and vulnerable to water scarcity and dry lands, risks related to land degradation include increased habitat degradation population exposed to Wildfire and floods and the cost of floods, risks to food security include availability and access to food, including population at risk of hunger food price increases and increases in disability-adjusted life-years attributable due to Childhood underweight. And you know David as we discussed frequently but perhaps not enough on the show, the people who will be most immediately impacted by climate change are the poor in the vulnerable but that being said you know no region or group of people will be able to avoid some consequence of global warming. For example while desertification poses the largest risk do people in Asia and Africa. Those in the tropics and subtropics are going to experience crop failure more frequently than other populations that live in higher. And colder latitudes may not know how to adapt to the impact of melting permafrost and the invasion of pest and disease, Baldo's in North America South America South Africa and the Mediterranean are in danger of massive and Unstoppable wildfire. I know what you're saying you're saying that's why I live on the coast there could be no wildfires on the beach well.
[46:53] That is what I was saying.
[46:56] Yeah well unfortunately for Coastal neighborhood there are going to be massive hurricanes and sea level rise leading to coastal flooding. And as the ipcc points out although the poor are the most vulnerable being rich doesn't save you because the health impacts of all this fall disproportionately on children the elderly, and women and I think everyone knows somebody in that cohort and of course for the rich men out there well what what can money buy to avoid a hurricane. A massive Wildfire right and all this changes you would expect will magnify the rate of migration as more and more people are displaced from their home. Which unfortunately is going to encourage as it has encouraged many countries to take a turn towards authoritarian nationalism, we go in-depth on this topic of migration and while building an episode 31 no entry and if you haven't listened that I encourage you to put it on your list as well because, the politics of border control that we discussed then are only getting worse and it's important that we understand this process and how the narrative that we're, often told that there's a great danger of migration that there's this crisis at the border whatever border you happen to be thinking about or in relation to. Those narratives don't always line up with the reality we need to understand that.
[48:19] Since we seem to be on a roll of recommending old episodes right now Danny we do actually have an episode where we talk about. Some extreme link the history of borders and maps and and passports and how we got in this sort of situation as episode 60. Toronto Parts if you like hearing me ramble about history for an extended. Of time that is definitely want to check out as one of my favorite.
[48:44] And these risks are coming about because the Earth is changing. Yo has the ipcc put climate zones will expand and push pull word what you mentioned earlier David what that means to me when I'm trying to conceptualize it is that. We will see the blurring of distinct climate so going back to Biosphere 2, their goal was to create an a closed system like you mentioned but also include as many of Earth's natural biomes of possible so there was an ocean there was a, rainforest there was a savannah all these things were included in and as you walk around it it kind of feels like you goes distinctly from one to the other and that's, kind of how the Earth is right we we do have very distinct climate and we're used to thinking of things like higher latitudes is being very cold containing these ancient and cam boreal forest, the permafrost you know that type of thing well the lower latitudes have more diverse ecosystems their warmer there's more bugs and Wildlife, you have diverse habitats from grasslands to swamps and then you get towards the equator and it's all tropical there jungles. Elephant ear leaves on these crazy trees multi-colored parrots and then of course you have regions of desert and vast Savanna landscape you know whatever.
[49:57] The current trends in warming are in many ways removing these distinctions and kind of compressing everything together into this homogeneous. Weird work wherever nothing makes sense kind of land right where, in the high latitudes the once secluded and preserve or are being invaded by ticks for the very first time permafrost is melting. And Arctic Ice is disappearing elsewhere grasslands are turning into desert and regions of extreme heat around the equator are expanding, and so it's like all these diverse climate zones are being pushed upwards towards the poles. I've been compressed and kind of combined and in that process crowding out a lot of unique habitat are the most unscientific bang anyone's ever heard.
[50:41] That's cuz they haven't heard my flat Earth rent.
[50:45] And so that's kind of sad to think about and I don't like to think about that David but, another sad thing to think about is how the changing climate undergoes feedback loops this is something we talked about a lot in the context of climate change, and it is where one process that's off another process within reinforces the original process right in there are tons of these. They go on with our Earth system the more the Earth warms the harder it becomes to prevent it from warming because it starts to run away and do its own thing.
[51:16] One that I like to think about is that because land temperature is accelerating twice as fast as the global average, you have dry land area is experiencing faster rates of evapotranspiration which causes a loss of water in the soil, which combines with decrease rainfall and leads to desertification, which then turned into a global feedback because more deserts mean fewer plants to absorb and store carbon in addition to the direct lease of carbon into the atmosphere as plant matter is lost and we actually have a whole episode on desert ification, because I'm really enjoying recommending old episodes, it's number 56 beneath the paving stones the desert and if you haven't listened to that put it on your list and in that up so we talked about the interesting contrast between grasses and truck which lead to desertification in the ways, plants themselves contribute to local climates this is something that I found fascinating, and this case not only does rainfall come less often because of global climate variability but plants themselves contribute to local rain patterns by transpiring water into the atmosphere so, a decrease in plant matter, means less water is retained in the soil which means less water is transpired into the immediate atmosphere which means less rainfall and so on and so on. And this reminds me of a really interesting thing David I learned reading a little book called The Hidden life of trees have you heard of this.
[52:39] Yeah it's on my list of things to read actually.
[52:42] It came out a couple years ago I think but it seems to have made a Resurgence lately I've heard a lot of people talk about it but, the fascinating things that this Forester talks about in this book this is a guy who was a Forester or is a Forester in Germany for a long time he was managing these forest for the benefit of lumber companies, the more you learn about the force you realize that, it's not the case of just individual trees that happen to make up a forest but the individual trees themselves are communicating, sharing resources and ensuring the success of what we originally would think of as their competitors and, there's a lot he goes into in this book about why they do that and how they do it it's very fascinating but one of the most obvious things that. You start to realize is that an individual tree as it would exist in the forest cannot really survive on its own very easily. There are environmental factors that make it difficult for a tree to survive like harsh winds, which author wrote the soil around it or or pose a physical challenge and then there's the sun which Bears down under the ground and dried it out and raises not surface temperature which then decreases the humidity around the tree, Twin Trees work together to keep each other alive.
[54:02] They can create canopy cover which acts to deflect the sun drying out the soil and cuddled together like that they prevent the wind from coming through their leaves and also disturbing them, and in addition to that Forest kind of create their own climate you have increased rainfall occurring and really diverse for us as the humidity. From the water that they transpired but in addition if you've ever walked through a jungle David or have been in a greenhouse, it's very humid and this is also something that benefits the individual tree when it works together with others in this vicinity is it by huddling together they trap humidity in the air around them. From the ipcc report quote changes in land conditions can affect temperature and rainfall and regions. As far as hundreds of kilometers away in.
[54:52] List of the types of feedback loops I can quickly get out of control Daniel on transpiration you mention right there the process of plants releasing water into the atmosphere as it is a fundamental building block of rainforests right so the Amazon for exam. The leaves open up they released this water vapor and turn to this miss that coalescence in the clouds because there's just so much vegetation so much life in this area that it's so dense I when does transpiration process begins it actually fundamentally Alters the humidity of the air to the point where. The air itself can no longer hold all this this liquid and eventually did comes back down as rain and gives us that moniker that we're so familiar with the rainforest it's a fundamental element of what creates, rainforest and access its own localized feedback loop, the rain that comes back down you know gives the plants enough brain that they are able to open up to transpire to release this liquid in it and continue this process.
[55:49] You know it you have to get to the point where that there's enough water vapor released that it's able to get to that point where it turns into clouds and rain, because if you just had this traditionally you are transferring you are releasing this liquid you are adjusting local temperatures typically cooling it which is something that we saw recently a tag in a bio lab in a very interesting way where they were planting, plants and crops underneath raised solar panels and for the transformation process to act as a cooling. A Mist essential to the back of the panels to make them more efficient at the magnitude of 47%. If you don't have enough of this happening if you don't have enough density enough vegetation releasing enough water vapor that it that it starts as Loop then you end up with the system crashing, and that's something that we might find ourselves on very soon in the Amazon where, because of damage to those sheer size of the Amazon through burning practices to deforestation I'm going through forest fires that are running out of control literally as we speak. As well as the decreased amount of ecological variability and the general plant life that we find in this, through increased stress has on the environment from rising temperatures and droughts that are responsible for this which is also something that they're setting up by a lap taking the rainforest biome right now not giving it the rain it needs and see how it responds and, the spoiler alert is not so well.
[57:13] These are the triggers that can click over and make sure that transpiration process is suddenly not enough and once that happens very rapidly you'll see the Amazon or whatever whatever other rainforest is happens to.
[57:27] Huge amounts the life in these rainforests are highly dependent upon this process and their vast amounts of liquid that is put into the system, and when that stops happening what can happen very suddenly this vast land will turn into wrestling, Prairie this is sort of what happened through much of central Africa where we see those those typical grasslands that if they were typical of that used to be rain for.
[57:53] And once that happens that only have you lost a huge amount of ecological diversity but we've lost some of the most important carbon sinks on this planet, and the decaying material plant life that happens in this transition is going to release huge amounts of carbon in the atmosphere does exacerbating this process once again find yourself one of these feedback loops. And in that process we're also losing one of the lungs of the Earth. For poisoning the water in the ocean does certification deoxygenation damaging the ability of much of the algae on Earth that we depend upon for the vast majority of our oxygen to produce that oxygen that we need so badly. And we're doing the same thing to this other vast oxygen producer, Amazon rainforest and the reports around the country around the world then we are creating a world that is increasingly less hospitable to all life.
[58:39] And you know you'll see some people talk about The Greening process it's actually mentioned in this report where the increased CO2 levels in the atmosphere have been good for plants and Earth is noticeably gotten Greener Over the past few decades because, I miss you satellite imagery go depends on region to region, it's one of the positive effects they mention in here because they do look at the positive and the negative effects of human after genic climate change on the Earth, Andrea Linda greenhouse gas emissions it's all bad but most of it is. But unfortunately the grieving process seems to have a cut off point where once you surpass a certain level of carbon dioxide you're no longer benefiting the plants you don't drink anymore and it seems for much of the Earth's surface recent reports have shown that the green has stopped. I'm going to saturation point and again not to keep going back to bio lab but. Studies beer run by Columbia University in the early 2000s the same studies at Discover the term ocean acidification actually. Found that once you surpass about 700 parts per million Something That We're well on our way to hitting with in this century. That these bass carbon sinks like the rainforest stop absorbing carbon at all.
[59:46] And you can learn more about this process of, saturating the atmosphere with CO2 in episode 7 last gas one of our favorites but you're the process you're talking about David will never occur because of fire day will wipe out the rainforest Through Fire. Also there was not going to allow water to win in the destruction of the rainforest David fires going to win.
[1:00:13] Well it's a competition so that's exciting at least and then almost one destroyed the salt first. Just to quickly get out of the way and other quick feedback loop because he's things are important and it is worth noting this in the larger terms report. Agriculture you know we talked about that a lot in the show we talked about a lot in this report agriculture has been used to create these vast Majin is landscapes in this is primarily because of the way that we go about our agriculture, that dreaded word of monoculture the practice of growing single crops and vast amounts over huge amounts of land at the degradation land itself as well as the animals and and insect life that live. And of course you know that it's it's not just something that exist in a vacuum but also our chemical process of growing that is this nitrogen fertilizer primarily, is a large driver of this so we use this nitrogen often overused maybe in this industrial agriculture when it concentrates in the soil.
[1:01:11] When we are putting it on these bass monoculture crops it actually prevents the growth of many Native species of plants and makes the soil something cold to hot, nitrogen into the soil these plants don't want to grow and this of course undermines biodiversity, and then it doesn't stop there this nitrogen runs off it poisons rivers and lakes causes massive algae blooms that prevent plants from growing would you believe in the water and then also suffocates if not directly poisoning all sorts of fish and other Aquatic species.
[1:01:41] And all of this is acting as one of the major drivers of climate change and so we're seeing this increase drought and intense precipitation events, call further soil loss and lag decoration that further reduces biodiversity and limits lens ability to sequester carbon effectively so you can see it all add up to make things even worse and then they play off each other and make the problems more significant as we'd agreed the land we have to rely more on this chemical scratch in order to get his back to a sustainable and profitable and that's if he were profitable levels of plant production and so, we just end up making the situation worse and worse and worse and that is a thing that keeps coming back to in this, paper but also does larger conversation about climate change that we've had over the course of almost 90 episodes throughout the show, I'm in the papers that are written by thousands and tens of thousands researched around the world. We sell it one single thing it's trying to destroy the Earth as many different ways as possible at the same time I'm in the mood today Daniel.
[1:02:46] Yes you are well destroying the Earth is really only relevant to humans David in the way it affects humans I mean that's alternately what we care about right and.
[1:02:56] I mean that is a very efficient way to talk about it I suppose.
[1:03:00] And what is agriculture but a way of producing food. And some 50% of the entire world depends on food that comes from interconnected Global Supply chains and the outputs of industrial Agriculture and the system is at Great risk, as things change and not only do higher CO2 levels in the atmosphere impact nutritional content of plants but, The increased severity and frequency of weather events means more logistical disruptions of delivering that food, it also means bad Harvest and in one scenario explored by the ipcc cereal crop prices increased Global by a median 7.6% by 2050, while some regions experienced as much as a 23% increase in crop prices.
[1:03:46] Well I actually Daniel on some of these reports inventions that if we add some sort of mitigation strategies like reforestation which is something we need to keep me know Earth from being destroyed, could increase food prices by as much as 80% not just you know 7 to 23% but 80% almost double the cost in food of what it would be otherwise which increases less than that have kicked off revolutions all around the world so, the sneak that in there just as like a tiny footnote underneath the graph and then they just blow past it as you know these touch reports like to do.
[1:04:22] David well actually torcivia. Well actually David you might have seen that in a footnote to point B on page 132 but I looked at foot point, 7z on a page 364 in it actually says something different.
[1:04:44] Actually it's a panel be reforestation and Forest restoration on page 29 the exact figure there is LinkedIn 6.4 point 5.1.2.
[1:04:57] Will you know whatever these numbers are the ipcc says that hate these changes are bad we need to adapt them and. Course they present these projections of how human Civilization by progressing in the ability for these different scenarios of humans to adapt to all these changes, but personally David you know this is something we looted to I feel like the ipcc presents a few contradictions or false assumptions and their projections of adaptation.
[1:05:24] What the ipcc would never do that.
[1:05:27] I don't know if it's intentional or not but for example okay their best case scenario for food security involves a world that is only high-income so no or very little income inequality.
[1:05:40] And a system of free trade while their worst case scenarios 10 to include things like poverty High income inequality and barriers to trade. Why do I feel like this is a contradiction will besides imagining a world where everyone is just rich I don't even know how that's possible or what that means of putting that aside. Historically speaking free trade has almost always been a force that decouples communities from their own land, increase dependency on Spalding supply chain switch themselves are a major factor in global warming, we discuss that briefly with dr. Patrick bigger and episode 84 carbon footprint and I think you alluded to this earlier David Howe, the carbon life cycle of many products that we consume is undervalued because well for one there is a military present needed to secure, the supply chains that deliver Goods across international waters and we don't take into account the greenhouse gas effect of militaries in the world and if you haven't listened to episode 37 the logistics of slavery, put that on your growing list of things to go back to because we go in-depth on how Logistics and Supply chains have been reached shaping the globe undermining the agency of local people. Enslaving marginalized people and fueling this militarization of the world. And I think I probably get where the ipcc is coming from maybe their logic is like well you know this region only grows one type of crap so.
[1:07:06] Climate change the straps their ability to grow that wanted crap they're in big trouble unless they can import other stuff. But again this is a contradiction because so many regions. I like you talked about are forced to specialize in mono production precisely because they're enslaved to a global supply chain famous example from episode 11 designing deception, Guatemalan peasants who wanted to own their own land and grow their own crops were murdered in the 1950s so that the, country could be converted explosively to banana plantation so do they need to import other food. Yes because we won't let them grow their own I mean yeah I guess being able to trade with other regions is important generally but. What a more important focus is who controls that trade and we should probably be encouraging to Muse around the world to adopt self sufficiency 1st and form. But the ipcc goes in-depth on on some of their recommendations on how we as a global civilization can adapt and mitigate these changes in global climate. And as you would expect a lot of their recommendations are basically to do the opposite of what we have been doing.
[1:08:17] Well who would have guessed.
[1:08:19] Who would select set of options deliver across all challenges these options include but are not limited to sustainable food production.
[1:08:30] That's that's that quote I was mentioning earlier.
[1:08:32] It doesn't stop there improved and sustainable Forest management soil organic carbon management ecosystem conservation. Land restoration reduced deforestation and degradation and reduced food loss and waste in.
[1:08:49] It's I mean it's so what ultimately it's our party is is hundreds of pages of scientist trying to prove to politicians that we should be sustainable with our land use and not waste food. That's that's what they said that's what was it come to that the idea that that being sustainable and the idea that not you know creating huge amounts of waste is radical and deserving of. Thousands if not tens of thousands of hours of research and proving and then who knows whatever work. And add to the submarine being stupid around the world with with who knows what kind of carbon cost is associated with that. That's the point where at where we have to justify this stuff that's should anybody would tell you oh yeah of course you know it don't take more than what you can put back in and don't waste what you do take out that is. Like a story as old as time. Not to go like nativists but I mean The Stereotype of the Native American using in every part of the animal and having a cultural mythologies of what happens to people who didn't utilize entire animal who wasted.
[1:10:03] Is a story for a reason this is once again that indigenous logic that seems so obvious to everyone literally everyone. Thousands of years and allow them to live in almost a sustainably about saying that every every group Live Scan it with his life aren't here anymore because they didn't.
[1:10:22] We have to ReDiscover this Nas qualify it and this is what that this paper really is is the qualification of basic obvious knowledge. Before weekend we can package it and justify it and turn into a report and say well if we you know do this obvious basic thing, it's going to cost us this much stuff but ultimately we can get a gain of whatever or you know improve disability affected life years by the SpongeBob. Which is stupid it's fucking stupid that we have to take once again very basic not the kind of thing you would teach a kindergartener right, kindergarten comes in a room you know and they messed up and you like okay well you know if you're going to mess up and play with things that's why we need to put it back, and leave it nice you teach kids to go camping for the first time, you know don't mess up the stuff around you leave it nicer than when you found it he's a very basic things you teach very small children share you know cooperate with each other and then you they spend the rest of their life.
[1:11:18] Culture and business and schooling teaching you to do exactly the opposite in order to get a tattoo as quickly as possible and now we have to reteach, the people who are in charge of everything you have these very basic fundamental like ideas of what it is to be humans on this planet. Because we've gotten so disconnected from our land from our land use because we live in these temples of concrete and asphalt and, and steel and glass that we don't know what it looks like when we destroy the land around us because we've never seen it or have any stories related to it all our stories are, link to people that link two places but artificial places and there is no link to the natural world anymore there's no link, to the land that we see around us and then therefore in that process unconsciously and subconsciously. Making torrone and Associate ourselves with making it very easy to want to pursue this idea of Defending that land. Read a story the phone call recently and we'll play it at some point I'm thinking this episode but sometime soon from somebody who grew up in a rural area.
[1:12:29] Anna really reaction that Daniel I recently found herself driving through kind of sort of. Did moving to the suburbs and finding just how disconnected they were with everything that they call us to talk about that suburb episode that we just did and the way I'm even feeling and how they felt trapped that's where they use. Makes me feel crazy and it's all of us not all of us were lucky enough to have that initial part when we were able to build that bond with the land, when we watch content we watch medium we see the land around it and see what's being destroyed and lost we feel it on some level that deep Soul crushing lost or something that we never even knew we wanted or part of or could have had. Something I was always denied from us by the way we decided to live our lives and construct our larger society.
[1:13:16] And so this this man that called us took his family moved back into the country and his wife says that he he ruined her in the process because she can never go back and. He called to tell us about how he was watching this country around him suffer and die. Are the trees are turning brown Atlanta's being ripped out to create this improved pasture land for Ranchers. And how no one understands why that's wrong no one understands these larger pictures of what's happening and he's on a crusade to try and and spread that idea. But the things that he feels a connection she has with with with the land itself in Apache County. Which I think is appropriate I'll tell you why it's the moment it's something that we need to try and find.
[1:14:05] Is that the only way we're going to be able to easily defend the land is if we feel connected to it once more. Everytime I mention Apache County in particulars because the Apache more so than maybe any other native group have a deep relation to the land and that relation is because they name the land and they walk among us. A typical Apache Community has a range of miles in any direction but within that that area they have hundreds of placement. And a place in some very specific things like a man has to climb up here or or description said that give you a very Visual and media. Identity what that place is Emily we've their stories of their tribe of their larger Community through these places.
[1:14:53] With the Elders of the tribe explaining in stories to the young and then to the middle-aged. Tribe mythology within these places they start every story with the name of a place and it happened and then they ended with the name of that place where it ends, and some of the stories are used to discuss problems people had so say you say you came in and you you send against someone else, eventually during the Triad meeting a few weeks later an elder would tell a story a parable designed to attack you on that specific sin that you did and no one would know it was necessarily about you but you. And what's important about that story the fact that it starts and ends in the same place a place that you live in was he walked by ride by or drive-by all the time means that you are now part of this place. You see that rock formation that Canyon whatever it is and you are associated with that story and with that thin that you did. Every time you see that reminder to live a better life every time you see it it's a reminder of the person that told you that story even when they pass away. Decades later that story sticks with you with that person sticks with you that moment sticks with you in that reminder to live a better life sticks with you it's embedded within the land itself it's a memory and a community weave dental and.
[1:16:14] And we don't have that anymore we don't have any relationship with the last thing that we exploit something that we turn into goods and products to ship around the world a profit off of a thing to exploit. And it's because we become so disconnected from the lad because we never see it we never have an opportunity to build that Bond and without that bond this idea of land use. If idea of what does 40% of the earth used for pastor look like we have no idea. It's something that is impossible for us to overcome cuz we're so disconnected so. I mean I don't know what the solution for this this element is here Daniel on the grander scale but it will encourage everybody to find a place. Very close to where you live. It's some sort of landmark you could be a tree could be a patch of dirt it could be a part that could be a hill it could be a rock to be a boulder can be anything you know something that stands out to you and I want you to imagine that thing in your, your head right now it's probably something you've seen hundreds or dozens of times before and I want you to sociate these thoughts with that place the thoughts of, ideas we played out of this episode will Simpson Tire show the thoughts of the systemic issues and the ways of living unsustainably that have doomed us it was we take drastic action right now, I want you to think about what it would be to Build a Better World what it would take to live sustainably what it means to try and live better.
[1:17:41] I want you to associate those ideas with that thing at rock that tree at Park whatever it is and I want every time you go past that. To think about those things until someone else cuz that awareness and that bond to the communities that we live in. Absolutely necessary if we want to start making any Headway on this problem.
[1:18:05] That's a great idea. You said a lot there and I just want to come back to something when you have something like the ipcc report and the media is reporting on it it's always framed a certain way and that way it is. The ipcc came out with a new report in August of 2019 saying that if we don't change our land use policies we could have romantic consequences, they recommend that we do this and that. And I started thinking about this and yeah you were talking about how frustrating it is to read this report that this is this is common sense. Write things that you would teach a child put back what you take don't destroy things right. But look at the the title of this report or or just the phrase summary for policymakers. This is a report aimed at policymakers are politicians are global leaders. And when we talk about a we need to change our land use policies we need to change just who is it talking about who is the we in that sentence is it me is it you and me David. Is it our listeners I don't think that's true because. Wii U and me David our listeners we are not the ones who destroyed this plan we are not the ones who set back and allowed corporations to pillage the Earth and we are not the ones in the Amazon right now.
[1:19:32] Maybe but you probably benefit from that beef they're going to grow down there you probably benefit from the the corporations that destroyed everything, I have to feel your consumerism I mean you can't absolve yourself Daniel of us. And I'm not saying that that we aren't maybe less responsible than some others. We all carry a guild with us some of us much more than others and and you can't mitigate that.
[1:20:01] But that's not the point. The point is not who benefits the point is who's going to create the change and it's not us asking our policymakers to create incentives, to encourage some different think the only thing that's going to change this is for us you and me and our listeners to stand up, against the corporations and institutions that are actively doing these things and that includes the politicians who have set by and deregulated the Earth so that corporations could come in and pillage everything, and yeah I mean everyone who eats a $1 burger at McDonalds benefits from that, but the fact that the global powers-that-be have enabled a infrastructure in our world where a corporation can, destroy a forest to provide livestock land and unsubsidized that so that anyone can afford a $1 Burger is a larger issue than. Are we as individuals end up being consumers along that process.
[1:20:57] And then what will the weird thing here Daniel said I'm scrolling through this report all 41 pages and I don't I don't see the ipcc recommending people to stand up to corporations and politicians and trying to get things changed on the systemic level, but I do see them saying that individuals should change their dietary patterns so.
[1:21:16] Well that's but that's my point this is a joke it's directed at policymakers when policymakers are the ones who have enabled these processes to go forward in the first place. So I'm rejecting the message that this coming from this media that is a we need to change our land use policies it is not our land use policy I did not make these land use policy if you did not make these land use policies it is our political leaders who have, profit is off of opening the door to the profit motive to take hold and to be the priority and how we organize our lamp. And unless we as people say it's not good enough to Simply incentivize companies, it's not going to use another example is my paint a better picture so I was also listening to a different media Network talk about this ipcc report and one of the journalist or reporter said oh well you know. We have a lot of products that contain palm oil and you know palm oil plantations are destroying forests in leading to all these terrible things so you know we need to encourage palm oil companies to alter their business strategy. Samsung no bills companies need to go out of business they don't need a different business strategy they need to not exist and if our politicians are going to, simply just work on solutions that are going to try to incentivize them to act differently we need to reject that and say no you need to put them in the grave.
[1:22:41] You need to take these oil CEOs and the people who are, Leading Armies of capital in infrastructure and machines destroying our world and say you are the enemy we cannot allow you to exist it's not that you need a different business strategy isn't you need to, get off the planet and that should be our attitude going forward.
[1:23:02] Hell yeah send me the Mars.
[1:23:04] All we need to do is build just a couple Rockets yellow use a little bit of jet fuel and that's bad but think about the long-term benefit we send a couple CEOs in to Mars and never come back.
[1:23:16] Yeah but let's say let's like crowdsource the rocket design and do like it was shot a job of it you know what I mean.
[1:23:23] I'll leave that to the listeners of us who have a more vivid imagination, but you know it's all it's not all bad advice here in the ipcc know they do recommend ways for us to move forward and they actually make a good point which is that, many of the mitigation and options we have going forward can be categorized into things that are long-term and short-term, longer-term options are typical things we might think of such as reforesting regions or preventing to for station but, there are also so many choices we can make that happen media short-term benefits such as, preserving the already existing high carbon ecosystems that we have like Wetlands Mangrove forests and Pete lamp. And Caitlin's are important because as we discussed in episode 21 climate ex machina, Forest reach a point where they no longer sequester additional carbon from the atmosphere because. The absorption rates balances out with the respiration and Decay peatlands on the other hand. Is a an ecosystem that can sequestered carbon for centuries into the future. What is a Pilon disease occur all over the world the form of wetland it's where a high water table exists where plants grow.
[1:24:40] Within this water oxygen deficiency prevents the decay of plant matter, once it dies and sinks to the bottom of the water and after a time this decayed matter turns into Pete and it is a form of sequestered carbon meanwhile plants continue to grow at the surface converting CO2 to oxygen, these Wetlands having much higher ability to sequester carbon in some cases then let's say it like a mature Forest because when the Trees of the forest die they are quickly decomposed releasing all their stored carbon back into the atmosphere. So while peatlands account or just 3% of all land they store between 21 and 42% of all Global soil carbon. Right now we are actively draining some 10% of these ecosystems converting thousands of years of stored carbon into giant Outfitters of carbon. And you know we talked a lot about reforestation and and, regenerative agriculture but here's an example of that hate if we just stopped draining these things we might do more for our ability to sequester carbon in do more in in terms of halting our current greenhouse gas emissions then we might be able to do, in the short term for some other longer-term process like improving the ability of mineral soil to sequester carbon which is a much longer-term process.
[1:26:03] But if you're also interested in how you if you have a farm or want to get into Farmington. Do a little bit yourself to improve the land beneath your feet, and if you haven't already check out episode 16 what we reap with permaculture farmer Christy Alessandro and episode 26 barriers to growth. Where we talked to land trust director Ian McSweeney a lot of these Solutions mean that we have to support initiatives that undermine the influence of international corporation, and that means we have to promote our ability to get our own communities self-sufficient by learning how to take care of the land we already have. David you have any other ideas about what we can do.
[1:26:49] Well if you would have asked the ipcc the talk about Beck's once again so you know let's just take that 20 million square kilometers of. Unused untouched pristine land well ipcc wants to turn 15 million of that into a bio Energy Fuels. And do you know burning gas for fun and we can build a better world.
[1:27:18] Something in your voice tells me you don't quite believe.
[1:27:23] Well yeah I think I gave away my positions throughout this episode and over the previous hundred hours or whatever it is that, that was established at this point but like I mentioned in my weird Apache Segway which if you haven't read it there's a great book called The spell of the sensuous, sort of Jack that's the way from there give it a read it's fantastic find a connection to the land whether it's something local. Tree patch of wildflowers. A park you know something doesn't necessarily wild or natural but it's something that makes you feel connected to the land at the start if you can get out of your city or your suburb if you're not lucky enough to live somewhere where you are surrounded by this beauty. Do that slip outside of these images of our civilization and find yourself once again in the Cradle. And look around and find your connection to the Earth to the land that sustains us.
[1:28:24] When you feel really connected to this Commonwealth that we all share a note that some people have been given permission to, exploit and Destroy in the interest of preserving the tragedy of the commons of land rights of whatever. You know you can regain your feeling a stewardship. Beyond the limitations of what we've decided is private property with the ability to destroy or explode in any way you see fit, then you're on the right step. If you can share that feeling of feeling connected to the Earth of the larger significance of gives you as an individual as a human in a world made up of, feelings of other humans hundreds of billions or trillions of other life forms that all live here interconnected depended upon each other dependent upon this fragile balance, and we have so arrogantly interrupted in order to live this life of temporary wealth and excess you can feel reconnected to that Global web. When you're on the right path and if you can take that feeling, and you can share it with others and you can give them the tools to express that feeling you get when you look over a beautiful scenic view when you find yourself walking through hallways of massive trees when you find that connection back to the Earth. Horny when you're on the right path and if you can give people the tools to step forward and start spreading this knowledge to others.
[1:29:52] Feeling of connectedness both with your thing with each other then you're on the right path and if we can keep pushing down this path, it's starting to take action on this stuff either by connecting with others giving them the tools of finding people who are already doing this and following in their footsteps, then we are on the right path and we need to get on this path right now immediately and we need to be pushing down here and we need to be making sure that we are holding those accountable that doomed us those people you mentioned that are left out, of this report Daniel who lived between the lines of these words talking about just how fucked we are and you try as most scientific language possible high confidence then we, can start pushing them where they need to go in order to find ourselves in a world that is sustainable in the world that doesn't Doom. Future children then we are on the right path.
[1:30:49] There's a lot of talk about mitigating climate change which is important obviously we should be fighting back against the forces that are adding fuel to the rapid degradation of our land and the acceleration of global warming. But remember the flip side of the coin is adaptation. I know many of our listeners have expressed the pessimism around our Collective ability to prevent climate change which is probably a rational perspective. Virtually impossible to prevent at this point but that does not mean it's game over. Climate change will get worse yes but how bad the consequences are depend in large part on our preparation. Have you organize your community into groups for sharing resources skills needs. And Hazard Community developed a plan of action in the event of water scarcity food insecurity and natural disaster will if not you have work to do. And when those things do occur you'll be glad that you did does all your food come from a National Grocery chain then you have work.
[1:31:57] Have you taken a first-aid quartz you have work to do. If you own a farm out of verse are your crops do you have systems in place to capture and store rainfall do you have a plan to get out of debt so you can support your local community with local produce. If not you have work to do we might not ever snuff out the cancer. That is international corporations and corrupt politicians intent on burning the rainforest to the ground. But we can make our families our communities in our Region's strong, it does self-sufficient as possible which will simultaneously undermine that dependent that is the power base of those corporations while giving us the best shot possible of Base a changing world. To grab hold of your bootstraps and let's all get to work.
[1:32:51] As always Daniel it's a lot to think about and it's a lot to do but we hope you'll get started. You can find more information about everything we talked about on this episode today as well as read that actual ipcc report on our website at ashes ashes. Org is also full transcript of this episode as well as every episode on there so I come out.
[1:33:13] A lot of time and research goes into making these episodes possible the show possible so if you like it and would like us to keep going you our listener can support us by giving us a review recommending us to a friend. Giving us a review one of those five star ratings on your favorite podcast app or visiting us at patreon.com ashes ashes cast. Where you can send us some Financial love which we appreciate very much and will probably send you a sticker. We'd like to thank our associate producers Chad Peterson and John Fitzgerald thank you so much. And another way you can support us again I get the word out, help us on the marketing front by posting us to social media your favorite internet forums use us in all those internet arguments you get into, refer back to these conversations so that we can get more people involved and engaged in any solution we can do a better world. And if you have ideas thoughts criticisms recommendations email us at contact at ashes ashes. Org.
[1:34:24] We have plenty of other ways of contacting us besides just email, at one of our favorites is give us a phone call or send it's not a recording if you are international we love hearing from listeners we're putting them together into some Austin shows and we'd love for your voice to be a part of that so, if you want to give us a call you can do so at 31399 ashes that's 313-992-7437. We are also on all your favorite social media networks posting Austin news stories updates on what's going on around the world as well as some really Kick-Ass memes and you can find us on your favorite social media Network at ashes ashes cast, next week we're back to our alternating chat shows we've got a lot of fun things to talk about in some interviews on that so definitely tune in for them but until then. This is ashes ashes.